Conceptual ------------ Beyond Conceptual
Furthermore, I divide the conceptual stage into two more stages, Early and Late, changing the description above to become:
Early Conceptual --- Late Conceptual ------------ Beyond Conceptual
Now, how do they differ from each other?
I have made a table to answer that.
These categories are not exclusive. People don’t have to fall in one category. In fact, people usually fall in more than one category at the same time.
However, it is very unlikely to be a part of three different categories at once.
Anyway, as you can see, the higher the stage, the more mystic a religion becomes.
The more mystic a religion becomes, the LESS it talks about CONCEPTS and the MORE it talks about SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE.
I guess that’s why people who have achieved the state are hard to understand UNLESS you have experienced what they have.
Karl Rahner once said that a religion that’s not evolving to become mystic is doomed to perish.
I couldn’t agree more, because I think people will never truly be content with something lesser than a mystic experience.
Hm... well, at least the ones who care.
* based on a talk with a friend of mine after having a flat tire
hum.. this is like the early post on your blog about "Kepercayaanku Dulu dan Sekarang"
ReplyDeletethis intrigues me.. makes me ask whether am i on a right track or not..because i felt like i'm getting farther from the pople around me and they tend to think that i'm some sort of agnostic freak.
and one more thingy.. what do you think about the radical christian like the bethel church of indonesia, or the charismatic catholic? who like JoTan said and i quote "I sometimes goes to Christian KKR just to feel the feeling of euphoria" or when we're on that retreat where you guys don't go up front to cry-along-game? Or when people who get touch by a holy guy and fell to the ground and saying the "spirit language".. where're their places? damn i hate those people.. i think there are no such thing..even if there are.. i don't think those people i saw really have the holy spirit within them.. i think they are on a state of "induced scizophrenic state" kinda thing or worse they fake it.. fuckin Hypocrites.. fuck3..
anyway does roman catholic have this kind of tradition? why is it only in protestants this kind of thing occurs? does every pastor have experienced this kind of thing even once in their lives?? or the protestant teenagers are the one the holy spirit prefers? please someone explain this..I'm dying to know the answer to this questions all my life.
I think:
ReplyDelete1. Christians are also included as young religion...
2. They are the reason that catholic has that "charismatic" thingy...so that the people who wants to experience this doesn't have to switch their faith...
3. I totally don't believe in any kind of that KKR euphoria..nor the spirit language...And I don't have any doubt about that...If I'm wrong...than so be it...
1. are you on the right track?
ReplyDeletehonestly, I don't know. I don't even know for myself. but I personally believe it will lead me somewhere.
about the pain, waking up is painful. knowledge is always painful. why wouldn't it be? you lose everything that used to be your solid ground. every solid concept and belief you have is re-tested. of course it is painful. a man once said something like, 'the path to truth is a lonely one'. I feel that. it's not just about not being able to find someone who can actually understand what you're going through. it's more than that. it's because you barely have anything, any beliefs, any comfort, any beautiful words to support you. I mean even God feels like a million light years away. you're on your own.
but hey, some people say that it is temporary. finally you will see something that truly lasts.
so let's hope so.
2. about the happy-other churches?
I believe they are not much different. they are seekers. they want to look for something that matters, something more than just... this. and let me quote someone, 'all this wild searches for meaning comes from the fact that humans are the only creature who is aware of their end.' they are the only creature who know that someday they will die. nobody wants to cease existing or going through all this for nothing. that's why they search for a meaning.
the difference is just this. I don't believe in what they believe.
I think sometimes they are full of pretenses about how we are so much loved to feel good about themselves. I know, maybe we are. but they are VERY specific about the ways, about the rules, and cling on them so much, that they become attached and blind to see anything that doesn't necessarily go with the idea.
In short: I think their search for truth has become a search for painkillers.
3. why the catholic church is LESS euphoric?
this is a question with a very long answer. all I can say is that if you read catholic theologian works, you will see that the way the catholic church sees the world is quite different and unique. it rarely leaves a room for euphoric state that sometimes I honestly think is shallow. however, it doesn't mean that there's no happiness in it. it does, but in much subtler way.
everyone has the rights to expressed their beliefs.
ReplyDeletewhat they don't have is the right to forced it to others.
- -
i personally belief holy spirits are seen everywhere: the air, the soil, stars, trees, whales, tukang ojek.
They all have the same language, the language of life.
- -
btw, what's KKR?
I know.
ReplyDeleteI was just saying why I chose mine.
KKR stands for Kebaktian Kebangunan Rohani. It's a form of Pembaruan Karismatik Katolik in the Catholic church.
PS: you sounded like a true pantheist. hehehehe...
@hub: haha God is the whole and the whole is in God?
ReplyDeletei don't really know how the define what's my view, not really dwelling into it.
am just trying to promote 'goodness' and limiting 'badness', with a notion that there's no definite good or bad.
oh shut, that just made me looked more pantheist than before. lol
so, what does this KKR do, actually? ppl experiencing metaphysical phenomena?
@hub: forgot to ask.
ReplyDeleteso in which group would I be?
humm yep you're expected to experienced some metaphysical activity and they name it "the holy spirit"
ReplyDeletehe? you never did once go into this KKR? i don't think catholic KKR is the same with the protestants, trust me i've experienced both more than 5 times (I'm being tricked to go to those shows)
maybe you should try it sometimes, just go to Istora senayan it's usually held there. the people number is usually enormous and the flood of emotions is everywhere. I'm not surprised if it's addicting to one's so called faith. I think you should experienced it for yourself then hopefully you'll understand what i mean.
and yeah you're kinda a pantheist :p
hahahaha...
ReplyDeleteI think you belong with the people that feel they had just enough of it.
@wongky: ouuww..if that's the case, I've experienced it many times without having gone into one of those KKRs (or the protestant's version).
ReplyDeleteI might have a look sometime, though.
@hub: and in which category are you?
sometimes the 2nd, sometimes the 3rd, and sometimes I just don't care at all.
ReplyDeletehehehehe...
humm are we talking about the same metaphysical activity here..?
ReplyDeletei mean it's like what we called in medicine a psychotic attack..e.g you fell to the ground, had a seizure like state, and your mouth are babling words that are just...bable.
humm makes me thinking to go to one and give haldol shots to the ones that is on "holy spirit".. never failed me here =p
Very interesting chart. I grew up in religious cult that fits the first column perfectly. But I got out (hooray!) and discovered books like Awareness and you're right, the change in me and others who escape from that life mirror the third column beautifully. I love that. :-)
ReplyDeletehey another awareness reader!
ReplyDeletearen't we all came from societies that belongs to column 1? but when I advance forward,it's kind of making me unhappy.
maybe it's like when your spouse is cheating on you.Knowing it means pain, not knowing means no pain.
which one will you choose?
congratulations for the escape guys.
ReplyDeletehehehehe...
Wonk: Reading awareness is just a start...it makes you open your eyes and see things differently...but that usually unraveled the ugliness of things...and makes you wanna destroy them all...but then latter, u start to applied the principals toward yourself..which makes you hate your own self...both gives you misery...but thats just a normal process I think..
ReplyDeleteI plan to write something about awareness...I've recently divided the state of awareness into awareness stage 0 - 1/2 - 1 - 2...but It will take a while to formulate it..hahaha
ehem.. mau kasi komentar buat blog cscara over all bagus kok blognya tus.. isinya berbobot.. niat jadi writer? :)
ReplyDeleteHahahahahahaha....
ReplyDeleteshush!
ReplyDelete@wongky: its actually a good sign if you felt like getting farther from the people around and they tend to think that you are some sort of agnostic freak :D
ReplyDeletei will give one example
do you know the translation for NABIIY (arabic word)??
it was an OUTCAST :D
@aron: cant wait your formula for awareness.....for me, based on my religion, I divided in into 13 stages
Wy formula will not as neat as yours...since its just a simple formula that I made based on social interaction...not on spiritual bases...but I don't think I'll ever release write something about it in the near future...because those religious writing I had just written negates the importance of other writings to come...so I'll take a break for sometime from serious spiritual writing hehehe
ReplyDeletebalance balance balance
ReplyDelete@ Hariy
just write it, will ya? I'd love to read it. maybe once you've written a few words, the trance pops out.